Monday, October 20, 2008


As most of you know, my previous post on Prop 8 doesn’t represent the real reason that I support it. I simply thought that semantics was an angle that somebody may not have considered.

I now confess the truth. Through my own personal study, pondering, and prayer, I have come to know for myself that marriage between a man and a woman is central to our purpose on earth. A marriage is something so sacred and powerful that it has the potential to outlast life itself. A marriage was, is, and forever will be exclusively between man and woman.

This I beli—NO; This I KNOW is true. I wish to express this deep felt knowledge by my Yes vote on Prop 8. But pass or not, nothing—not four judges, not yard signs, not even a majority of Californians—can change this eternal principle.

I do hope that this constitutional amendment passes so that Marriage, as eternally instituted between man and woman, can be recognized as the miracle it is for individuals, families, communities, and nations. I hope that California can stand, at least one more time, for truth.

Thanks to all who commented on my previous post. The comments were both enlightening and fun. I thank you in particular, Commenter Recreader, whoever you are, wherever you are. You were keen to notice without even knowing me that the post didn’t represent my deeper feelings on the subject. Although we disagree, I hope you can respect the sincerity of what I’ve said here. Thank you for the opportunity you gave me to share this testimony about the true nature of marriage, and indeed, about What I know is right.



At November 06, 2008 8:42 PM , Blogger Cash said...

I too appreciate your candor and honesty, but must disagree with you. We are all sinners and only God can judge us for our sins. California made it illegal for interacial couples to marry - and many churches used the Bible to support their argument for the ban. What if they put a proposition on the ballot to outlaw Mormons in California and you had to sit back and watch your community vote you in or out? We know that in America we all have the right to believe what we believe. At the end of the day, though, you get to choose what's right for you. Limiting others rights because of your beleifs is not right. God gave us all free will. What you do for yourself and your family is your business and I personally like it that way. You are free to practice your religion and express yourself. But gays can't - not becasue God says so - but because people say so. And finally, if you were as you say voting with your bible, then every sin you have ever commited makes you in essence a hypocrite. Because if you think homsexulaity is a sin, then when you sin (and everyone does) you gratify your own sinful needs when it is convenient for you, yet limit others GOD-GIVEN free will in the name of God. If you live in a glass house (and we all do) you can't throw stones at others - or worse - limit others based on your beliefs. I think that God would be ashamed of Prop 8 - not because He may or may not condone homosexuality - bit because creating moral laws and enforcing them is His work. Not the work of sinners. And again, we are ALL sinners.

At November 07, 2008 1:19 AM , Anonymous recreader said...

I disagree with Cash. People voting for Prop 8 weren't saying that homosexuals are sinners. They don't care if people stay homosexual. They don't care if people act on their homosexuality. They don't care if homosexuals live together. They have nothing against homosexuals getting the same rights as heterosexuals. At least, this is what this girl is saying in her post. What they don't want is homosexuality to be tied to the word, or insitution, of marriage. They feel there is a benefit to keeping them separate and most of them do it with respect of homosexuals (there are some who do it for terrible reasons, that's true). It is not about casting judgment, it's about societal structure and clear definitions.

They are also worried about it affecting their children in ways they feel parents should be responsible for, not society. Education is a POWERFUL thing. Education (in various forms) made people hate and kill Jews without thinking twice (Nazi regime). You don't have to know a lot about cultural history to know that literature and philosophy have huge cultural impact. Little children reading about two princes getting married, among many other things that can happen in schools, is a HUGE deal. Imagine in 30 years, your children or grandchildren are learning that having sex with animals or small children is completely normal. An extreme example, I know, and I don't want to compare homosexuality to such things. I am just trying to show that different people draw the line of parental control (among other things)at different places and that is okay.

To bew honest, Homosexuals just need to do something that gets sexual education out of schools or something along those lines. Then they would win it. They won't do that though, because marriage is the not the agenda. The agenda is the normalization of homosexuality and the identicalization of homosexuality and heterosexuality (so they are completely the same in almost every way). Like I said before, people like this girl want to make sure that this distinction is clear. It really is not a bad distinction to have, as long as people can be respectful to people of both orientations.

What we DO need to do is spend more time talking about how people ARE aloud to disagree with homosexuality, but the mistreatment of homosexuals should not be tolerated. Don't judge them. Respect them. Homosexuals feel that the only way to get the respect is to, over generations of time, "teach" society that the two orientations are no different. It's like being colorblind with people's races: the goal is not to eliminate cultural identity and make us all the same. The point is to seek to understand the good things that different cultures offer and overcome stereotypes and preconcieved notions. Or gender: the goal is not to believe that men and women are identical (like society seems to think) but to understand and respect their similarities and differences. That is how cultures THRIVE, they don't throw everything into to the pot and boil it because boiling is an easy and safe way to create digestable objects (food).

Also, if I understand cash's logic correctly, we shouldn't make laws against murder, stealing, and other such things. I think cash is claiming that making and enforcing laws that prevent people from exercising their free will (which cash essentially defines as being able to do whatever you feel is right) is not appropriate. So, if someone really felt, deep down, that murdering someone was the right thing to do, there should be no law enacted or enforced that would prevent them from doing that. Cash says that God is charge of that . . . so I guess we all just get to do whatever we "believe" while we are on earth, no one can expect anything from anyone else, we only need to consider our own BELIEFS, and then God "takes care of it" when die and are judged . . . or something like that.

Also, using the Bible as a source (as cash did)God was against homosexual PRACTICE (acting on homosexual feelings), so I don't think he would vote no on Prop 8 to enable marriage of homosexuals. Why would he speak against homosexuality, but rejoice when Prop 8 fails? The Bible makes it very clear that God doesn't give commandments or advice just to create a checklist so that he has something to judge us by when we die. He gave commandments because he knows what helps us and he knows what hurts us. So, maybe homosexuality has negative effects on people and societies that we don't even recognize. We always think that the generations before us were narrow-minded, but maybe they understood something we have forgotten. It's a possibility . . . that will, unfortunately, never be considered.

Perhaps the most important aspect of Prop 8 was not about homosexuality. Perhaps it was about foundational philosophies. Some people want to spread the notion that you can do whatever you want, while others want to say that there is a fundamental right and wrong (even if we are not perfect in understanding it). I mean, Prop 8 failing would prove that if enough people want things to be a certain way, then it happens. It doesn't matter if it is a good thing, bad thing, or any kind of thing . . . there just needs to be enough votes. Holocaust . . . atomic bomb . . . murder . . . drugs . . . majority rules and that's it. We, silly little humans, define what is right and wrong. There is something higher than us, and you can call it whatever you want (morals, ethics, standards, right, truth, light, God, Buddha, universe, nature, existence), we all sense it. We don't listen much anymore, though. We are interested in what we want . . . and perhaps what our peers want. We don't look up anymore.

So, if people can do whatever they want, and the world adheres to this philosophy, then there may be a day when murder is legal and adults can marry 11 year olds . . . or horses.

I tihnk we all agree that there is a line to be drawn and it is not that crazy of an idea to draw it at the complete normalization of homosexuality and identicalization of both orientations.

You need to rethink what you think.

At November 07, 2008 5:27 PM , Blogger Cash said...

Where do i even begin to refute your arguments, recreader.

First of all, I was rebutting the blog author's argument on religion, which is what her post was about.

These comments are most certainly in response to your condescending "save the children" argument. I thank you for realizing that comparing homosexuality to bestiality is "extreme". How big of you!Recreader - gays are humans. Comparing gay people to having sex with an animal is offensive. I suggest you find a better analogy for your arguments.

And the heart of your argument is about the children, thinking that homosexuality is normal would be bad for them. I suppose you think that if you were taught about gay marriage in school you might become a homosexual (which i understand from your comments would be cataclysmic). Your position that homosexuality needs to stay cemented as abnormal, in essence making sure children think of gays as freaks and the wrong way to be just makes my point all the more clear.

The reason for the opposition to homosexuality is because of fear. I'm more worried about the poor kid who knows he/she is different having to cope with shame over his/her feelings than kids being potentially influenced toward homosexuality. You want to say think about the children? The number one killer of our kids today is SUICIDE - most of them GAY! The most heartbreaking anecdote I've ever heard of is the parent of a gay child who had killed himself who said, "I'd rather him dead than gay". You want to protect the kids - try teaching tolerance. Yes literature is powerful. But you are confusing propaganda with facts. I'm not saying let's put rainbows and "It's OK to be gay" posters in the classrooms. Kids have more access to information now more than ever. SO denying rights on the basis of containing information deemed dangerous sounds more in the Nazi regime than anything in the teachings of the Bible.

History has shown us that we've had these same arguments time after time again. I noticed you didn't react to California banning interracial marriage and the church's overwhelming support of it years ago. It's probably too hard of a reminder for you to realize that you are on that side - that side that fears what might happen if people could be treated as humans with dignity no matter their color, religion, sex or orientation. You would rather let others who are not like you be miserable and feel like second-class citizens because of your truly baseless fear that by kids learning about topics in school will profoundly make a difference. It would warm my heart to know that if a child was truly gay and learned to be proud of it and not ashamed like so many in the past.

But to hear you, that's the point. you don't want gay people to be proud because they are different than you and what they do somehow threatens you in some mystifying way.

And congrats - Prop 8 prevailed! The solace that gay people can take in is that just like slavery, jim crow laws, California banning interracial marriage - is that in time human beings evolve and fight their fears and prejudices, and tolerance and equality prevails, at least in the USA!

At November 07, 2008 6:34 PM , Anonymous recreader said...

1. Cash addresses the fact that having sex with animals is a bit exterme, but does not address little children. Would it be okay for us to pass a law saying that adults and 12 year-olds can get married because they are both humans? Again, not every human relationship is appropriate and people having feelings against homosexuality is understandable.

2. The goal is not to label homosexuality as "abnormal." I used the word "normalization" when I really meant "identicalization." My fault. I also thoroughly addressed that people should not think homosexuals are "freaks." I specifically mentioned that they should be allowed to have their freedom to disagree with it, but mistreatment of homosexuals (or even thinking they are "freaks") should not be tolerated. You put words in my mouth and that was not appropriate.

3. I am not worried about this being simply "spread" in schools. it is not about availability to information. It's a matter of endorsement. They can find all kinds of things on the web that say homosexuality is great and they can find sources saying it is wrong. In schools, they would not be able to have such an experience. The curriculum would "endorse" it as something equual and identical to heterosexuality, which some people don't believe.

4. Denying interracial marriage is silly and based on misinterpreted passages of scripture. The notion of people claiming that is absolutely ridiculous.

5. No one is threatenend by gay people. That is not why pro-prop 8people voted yes. They just don't want their society to promote actions they think are not right.

6. Posters will go up in schools. Go research what is happening in Massachuesetts. It's crazy how forced down people's throats it is. Again, homosexuality is not the worst part of the situation . . . it's the "forced down people's throat" part that gets people worried.

7. I don't think it's that "tolerance and equality prevails." I think we just believe more and more everyday that we should be able to do whatever we want. Some people call it "moral decay." I don't call it that, I just think it it's the idea of doing whatever you want and feed your appetites no matter what.

8. I don't think you have talked about gay MARRIAGE once, which I find very interesting.

9. This discussion will go nowhere because you and I have difference foundational philosophies regarding the purpose of life. You and I can go back and forth, but we are not speaking the same language. The goal, though, is that I can respect your views and you mine. We can help each other see each side's concerns. It's when one side assumes that the other side is completely stupid that problems arise. Most people are decent and have good intentions. Don't call them bigots and don't call homosexuals fags. Can we not just assume the best in each other? We just get so angry all the time and it hinders us.

At November 08, 2008 2:04 AM , Blogger Cash said...

Well we can agree at least recreaader that no common ground can be found here in this discussion. And this too will my final response.

Glad you gave gays the upgrade from comparing homosexuality to bestiality to child molestation. I guess that's progress? Look, the reason it's so hard for you to find a valid analogy is simple: Gay marriage is between two consenting adults. Not children, animals, or aliens from outer space (I'm sure that would be close or similar to your next what-if argument). Children are children and under the care of their parent(s). Two consenting adults making a choice to live together and start a life should not have the government telling them what they can do as law-abiding individuals. And if they can pay taxes just like you then they should be able to be married just like you. That's America!

And you have the right to disagree with people day and night and express that. But government has no place telling people how to live their lives and limiting rights of people based on their sexual orientation. Call it normalization, identicalization or whatever new made-up word you like. I call it DISCRIMINATION. I would defend your right to express your opposing views because i don't like to see people's voices suppressed. But you vote to keep loving families on the back of the bus and treated differently based on your own personal beliefs. That's not American and that's not what this country is supposed to be about.

Your concern about "how" gay marriage would be presented to children is valid but not worthy of curtailing equality for others. It's a secondary issue. Trust me when I say this, that I would be against any propaganda "endorsing" ANY sort of sexuality in children. They're already way too sexualized by the media (which is a whole other debate). But let's get real here - if your theory that if schools "endorse" gay marriage will influence kids to become gay I ask, how is anyone gay then??? Schools don't teach it yet one out of 9 folks are gay! It flies in the face of basic logic. There have been and always will bne gay people. The difference today is that people don't have to live in shadows and feel ashamed of who they are.

"No one is threatened by gay people. That is not why pro-prop 8people voted yes. They just don't want their society to promote actions they think are not right."

Their society? This is GOVERNMENT! This is not a church, this is the state constitution having to be amended to limit rights of people. It baffles me how people feel they control others and their actions based on their own tastes. Here's a VALID analogy: People are concerned about obesity. Let's say you love ice cream. Well society is tired of paying for higher insurance premiums and higher taxes for hospital bills. So society decides to outlaw ice cream in the state of California. Let's say you aren't fat and can control what you eat and if you like ice cream then damn it you should be able to eat it, you say. How dare the government tell me what I can eat!? Sure enough there's a proposition on the ballot to outlaw ice cream. You fight it but society says yes to outlawing ice cream. Can you understand what I'm saying?? Government's place is not to regulate what we as adults do within the law. What would you do if you had to get governmental approval as to whom you could marry??? What if the government limited how many times you could get married?? Do you get it!? Can't you see how wrong it is for the government to impose these restrictions on two consenting adults?

I've heard this "forcing down my throat argument before and i don't get it. Do you mean - fighting for equal rights? is that forcing it down your throats? Should gay people just wait for society to say..sure OK, you can be gay and get married? Are people coming to your homes trying to make you gay? Again, I have no clue how one can force homosexuality down one's throat.

As for your comment about me not talking about gay marriage itself - I say what's the point?! I could tell you about my neighbors Sue and Kelly who have two beautiful kids and are just like every other family I know and how they beam with pride at making their family legitimate. But now they're children will probably become bastards again because their marriage may be nullified. I could tell you about my brother who is married to the most gracious human being ever and show you pictures of their wedding and tell you how happy they are. But from your comments you would recoil in disgust. So I chose not to go there.

And finally: "7. I don't think it's that "tolerance and equality prevails." I think we just believe more and more everyday that we should be able to do whatever we want. Some people call it "moral decay." I don't call it that, I just think it it's the idea of doing whatever you want and feed your appetites no matter what."

You clearly see homosexuality as a perversion and that's OK with me. It really is. But when your point of view takes precedence over another's - that's just wrong. I don't think you're stupid. I would never take this much energy to conversate with a stupid person. But I do wish that you wouldn't be so scared. I wish you weren't so afraid of what may happen "if this gay thing goes to far" (not your quote but some others). I wish i could compel you to see that while you may disagree with someone's lifestyle that you are free to have YOUR own lifestyle and those freedoms are too important and sacred be taken away from us for "society" sake. It's not what government is for. Yes government enforces criminal laws like murder and theft and of course, we're not talking about LAWS. We're talking about our basic rights of dignity and respect and how we have to change our constitution to take those right away from a group (a society?) of people. When we let our views of how people should be/do/act, and questions of morality come into government then I wonder what new propositions may come our way. You feel safe today in knowing that Prop 8 was righteous and approved by folks like you. What will you do if/when you fall on the other side of a new moral proposition on the ballot?

I've appreciated the dialogue recreader. Take care.


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